Emanuel Kapelsohn is an internationally recognized Firearms Training and Use of Force consultant who has instructed thousands of police and security officers, federal agents and others throughout the U.S. and abroad since 1980. He currently serves as a consultant to
Manufacturers of Firearms and related products regarding design, human factors, safety and training issues; product literature including warnings and owner's manuals; development of user, instructor and armorer training programs, materials and training aids; marketing issues; and risk management
Cities, States, and Governmental Entities regarding development, review and implementation of use of force policies, law enforcement training programs and issues, response to critical incidents, and risk management
Law Enforcement and Security Agencies regarding selection of firearms and related equipment; design and implementation of training programs; safety surveys and safety protocols; qualification standards; development and review of written departmental firearms and use of force policies; and evaluation of specific use of force incidents and firearms accidents
A graduate of Yale University and Harvard Law School, Mr. Kapelsohn is a practicing attorney in addition to his consulting work. As vice president of the Internat’l Assoc. of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, he is a certified in force science and shooting scene reconstruction, and as an instructor in numerous law enforcement disciplines.
This manual is designed to address and hopefully reduce, the tragic incidents of officer deaths in recent years which have occurred in role-playing and force-on-force training exercises. These are the most authoritative source of guidance available on simulation training safety.
This book is a must for any firearms program. As an outline of relevant knowledge for law enforcement firearms instructors, this Reference Guide is more than just a glossary of terms; besides a guide to nomenclature, it is an index to professional standards and practices, whose dissemination is at the heart of IALEFI's mission. It has three complementary functions, combining features of a glossary or dictionary, an encyclopedia, and a handbook.
Roy G. Taylor is a current Chief of Police with over 40 years of experience in a wide-range of federal, state, local, and private criminal justice positions. He delivers comprehensive and intelligent Law Enforcement and Security Services to federal, state, and local governments, and is authorized to work on private or government properties including parks, any government owned buildings, land, public housing communities, hospitals, schools, or similar areas.
Dr. Taylor's experience and expertise includes use of force and firearms instruction; recruiting, selection and assignment; employee supervision, evaluation and retention; curriculum development; policies and procedures design and implementation; canine utilization; budgeting; public relations; and emergency management.
Chief of Police Blue Ridge Public Safety (2014)
President/CEO Signal 88 Security of Charlotte (2012)
President/CEO Capitol Special Patrol (2012)
Chief of Police Capitol Special Police (2002)
LT. Colonel – Provost Marshal, Army National Guard (2000)
Antiterrorism / Emergency Management Branch Chief DoD (2007)
Provost Marshal Joint Civil Support Task Force, Joint Chiefs of Staff (2014)
Second Look Training and Forensic Consulting, LLC is a veteran owned and operated business developed to provide quality Investigative Training for Detectives, Crime Scene Investigators and Prosecutors. All of their instructors are experienced detectives or crime scene analysts, most are published, all have been recognized in court as expert witnesses in their respective field of expertise, and each has already provided training to law enforcement and forensic professionals. Their training is based on investigative experience, sound investigative, forensic principles, and the latest forensic techniques.
List of Courses Offered:
Investigating Staged Crime Scenes
Forensic Aspects of Death Investigation
Bloodstain Pattern Analysis
Investigating Sexual Assault Cases
New Detective Course
Child Abuse Investigations
Digital Evidence for Law Enforcement
College Enrichment Courses
Principal, Arthur S. Chancellor is a Law Enforcement Expert with over 40 years of experience, including 30+ years as a Special Agent, supervisor, and Commander with the US Army Criminal Investigation Division. He is currently an Instructor and Consultant at Second Look Training and Forensic Consulting, LLC.
Mr. Chancellor has personally investigated or supervised several thousand felony investigations which occurred on a military base or in the civilian community. He has processed over 200 homicide death scenes and qualified multiple times as an expert witness in the area of Crime Scene Analysis and Crime Scene Examination.
Mr. Chancellor's focus in the last 15 years is on death and sexual offenses. His specialty is Staged Crime Scenes also known as Staging which is a crime scene alteration made by an offender to misdirect a criminal investigation. His most recent consultations have centered on homicides staged to resemble some other event or in false sexual assaults.
George Schiro is a DNA Technical Leader - Forensic Scientist. His duties include incorporating the DNA Advisory Board (DAB) standards, accountability for the technical operations of the lab, conducting DNA analysis using the 13 STR core loci and Y STR in casework, DNA research, forensic science training and crime scene investigation.
Mr. Schiro has worked over 3500 cases and has qualified as an expert over 175 times in 31 Louisiana parish courts, Arkansas, California, Florida, Mississippi, Missouri, Nevada, New York, Texas, West Virginia, federal court, U.S. court-martial, and two Louisiana city courts. Has also consulted on cases in 29 states.
In 1989, I heard Dr. Henry Lee speak at a homicide conference in Metairie, Louisiana. Dr. Lee is currently the Connecticut Department of Public Safety Commissioner and, perhaps, the most famous forensic scientist in the world.
One specialized operation that is routinely abused is the crime scene operation. From small police departments to large law enforcement agencies, the biggest problem with crime scene operations is the presence and interference of non-essential personnel at the scene. The law enforcement agency’s administration should deal with this and other crime scene investigation problems through effective crime scene management.
Timothy A. Dimoff, CPP, is a nationally recognized authority, consultant, author and trainer offering total package solutions relating to employee issues including workplace violence, substance abuse, management training, FLMA /discrimination issues, bullying, sexual harassment, documentation procedures, liability reduction, hiring/firing and pre-employment screening procedures, corporate investigations, internal theft, and security analysis/vulnerability assessments.
As founder and president of SACS Consulting & Investigative Services, Inc., one of the nation’s leading security consulting firms, Mr. Dimoff has over 40 years of experience in Security and Human Resource matters serving both the public and private sectors. He is multi-certified in the security field. He is board certified by ASIS as a Certified Protection Professional (CPP?) which is internationally recognized as the “gold standard” certification for security management professionals, demonstrating their knowledge and competency in seven key domains of security.
Mr. Dimoff is also an A.L.I.C.E Certified (Alert, Lockdown, Inform, Counter, Evacuate) Training instructor; a member of InfraGard, a joint professional organization between the FBI and security professionals to work collectively against crime, terrorism and to improve educational abilities and knowledge for the private sector; a member of NOITR, a joint professional organization between the Secret Service and IT security professionals to work collectively against crime, terrorism and improve educational abilities and knowledge for the private sector with emphases in the IT and internet areas; and is a member of the American Society for Industrial Security (ASIS).
Mr. Dimoff has written dozens of security-related articles and has authored four books. He also provides media commentary and profiling analysis for TV, radio, internet and print media worldwide. He holds a Bachelor of Science Degree in Sociology with an emphasis in Criminology from Denison University.
Areas of Expertise:
Security / Law Enforcement Policies and Procedures
Medical marijuana is now legal in many states and many other states are considering legalizing it. This creates a host of issues and questions, legal and otherwise, that employers must address. This also affects workplace issues and policies. And since each state is different, how do you know how your state laws vs. federal laws affect the issue? It is confusing but this is an area where it is critically important to understand and to act accordingly.
School shootings - church shootings - road rage – bullying - workplace rage. We are so angry! It seems as if there are no boundaries anymore. Have we completely forgotten how to deal with life’s setbacks in a civilized manner? Have we become a world full of life’s rages
It began with "Road Rage" and quickly expanded into "School Rage", "Work Rage", "Air Rage", "Anti-government Rage" and "Anti-business Rage." . . . Life Rage examines these rages...their causes and effects, and offers hope and solutions. Americans can come together and make our lives and businesses safer and better.
This book reveals a darker, grittier side of American culture that many people never see. Readers will be stunned by the impact drug abuse has in our homes, our workplaces, schools and even on the athletic field. A must-read for anyone who needs to be able to spot the signs of drug abuse or stop it before it begins.
This fun-to-read book is for anyone who manages or owns a small business. Filled with real-life in-the-trenches stories, you will gain exciting insights into the fundamentals of building a business from the ground up. You will also learn how to develop long-lasting customer relationships to grow your business and place it on the fast track to success.
Michael Levine – Security and Investigative Consultant, D/B/A SENTAC INTERNATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS. Network of Ten-Percenters - There is an old saying in Federal Law Enforcement: “Ten percent of the investigators are responsible for ninety percent of the cases.” Mike Levine is one of the most decorated supervisory agents in the history of the Drug Enforcement Administration. He has 45 years of courtroom and field experience (civil and criminal) as a Trial Consultant, Expert witness, and Investigative / Security Consultant. A Police Training Consultant,
Mr. Levine specializes in Undercover Survival and Informant Handling Tactics and Procedures, saving lives and providing indemnity to law suits. Mr. Levine has direct and immediate access to a hand-picked network of investigators comprised of men and women who have proven themselves with long experience as creative, hard driving and successful experts in each of their fields, and like himself are each much awarded veterans of law enforcement.
Complicated Investigations in Support of Litigation (intra and international)
Personal Security Assessments and Counseling (all areas)
Plant and Operational Security Assessments and Counseling (all areas)
Sensitive Position Background Investigations and Counseling
Investigative and Research Support Extensively Backed by a Continually Updated Database of Information that Relates to Each Area Expertise
Media & Technical Consulting
Background Experience - Michael Levine's law enforcement career encompasses 25 years service with DEA, Customs, BATF & IRS Criminal Investigations Division. His supervisory experience includes being in command of task force units combining officers of FBI, BATF, IRS, Customs, NYPD and other local police agencies. During Mr. Levine's Department of Justice service, he served as an OPR (Office of Professional Responsibility) Inspector during which time he was trained in the reliable methods of investigative file review in affixing management responsibility for operational failures, tactics which he has continued to use in the analysis of cases and the testimony related thereto.
Mr. Levine has extensive experience working executive protection details for both the Secret Service and Department of Justice and is a graduate of the Secret Service Executive Protection Training Program. He also served as a Security Consultant and Operational Advisor for a major internet pharmaceutical company.
Michael Levine is currently lecturing on Undercover Tactics and Informant Handling for the US State Department in Brazil. His widely published articles and books include the New York Times and national best-sellers Deep Cover, The Big White Lie, and Fight Back, the community anti-drug plan recommended by the Clinton Administration Drug Policy Office, BLIND MULES-FICTION OR FACT?, and The Weakest Link, a paper based on Michael Levine’s presentation before the Defense Intelligence College, Southern Command, analyzing the devastating effect of unqualified management in law enforcement and military on public safety.
While still serving as a DEA supervisory agent in 1988, Mr. Levine was the subject of A Random House/Times Books biography, Undercover, by Donald Goddard Mr. Levine has been a consultant and on-air expert for in excess of one hundred radio and television shows, including 60 Minutes, CNN, Crier Report, MSNBC, CBS News & Morning Show, ABC’s Nightline, Crossfire, Macneil Lehrer News Hour, and CBS. He also appeared on The History Channel’s "20th Century", Geraldo, Eye on America, Like It Is (Gil Noble), Dick Cavett, Inside Edition (Bill O’Reilly), Sony Pictures, Spelling Productions, Contrapunto (Spanish language version of Crossfire) and more. Mr. Levine is also the host of New York City’s “The Expert Witness Radio Show,” featuring interviews with top international law enforcement and legal experts covering all the areas of Mr. Levine’s expertise.
Relying on data taken from 45 years of professional experience as a Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) supervisory agent, U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) expert on undercover and informant handling procedures, trial consultant, expert witness, and police instructor, the author details the evolution of the Reverse Sting operation and its related informant-handling practices, from a once valuable and effective investigative tool to a headline grabbing scam that has severely damaged our system of justice by obliterating the entrapment defense and turning the Reverse Sting into a way to make money for criminal informants.
Law enforcement agencies call them CIs (Cooperating Individuals, Confidential Informants, and/or Criminal Informants). Cops who use them call them stoolpigeons, stools, rats, chotas, etc. Intelligence agencies (Central Intelligence Agency [CIA], Defense Intelligence Agency [DIA], etc.) call them "assets" or the more confusing "agents."
On January 12, 2000, Gloria Cespedes-Cano and her teenaged daughter Sandra1 stepped through the doors of the LACSA (Costa Rican national airline) baggage department at John F. Kennedy International Airport and into a nightmare
During my 25-year career in Law Enforcement, working for four Federal law enforcement agencies - IRS Intelligence, BATF, Customs and DEA - I never lost a prosecution case. Here's the "secret" to my success
Fight Back, designed by Michael Levine, one of the most effective narcotic agents in drug war history and the author of NY Times bestseller Deep, is a tactical anti-drug manual for families, communities and schools. Called "the only drug plan ever to come out of America that made any sense" (Swedish Carnegie Institute), the plan-unlike the, now, $1 trillion war on drugs-has proven itself effective wherever employed.
The Big White Lie, by New York Times best-selling author and former DEA undercover agent, Michael Levine, is a fly-on-the-wall look at the top-secret deep cover operation that ripped the lid off CIA sabotage of the War on Drugs. The New York Times described the book as a "hair-raising" non-fiction book that "moves with the speed of a first-rate thriller."
"Deep Cover," a NY Times bestseller by former DEA agent Michael Levine, is a first-hand account of the sabotage of a DEA undercover sting operation that threatened to expose US government ties to drug financed governments in Mexico, Panama and Bolivia. As the NY Times put it: "A fascinating, exciting and sometimes horrifyingly comic tale...
Clinical Forensic Psychology Consultant Charles Heller
Charles H. Heller, PhD, is a Clinical and Forensic Psychologist with over 35 years of experience in his field. Dr. Heller offers consultative expert evaluations to assess children and adults for intellectual, emotional, and mental abnormalities as defined by federal regulations. He is experienced in psychotherapy and psychological testing and provides psychological services to a broad spectrum of clients. Dr. Heller is currently on staff at Rutgers University Biomedical Health Service, specializing in criminal behavior and risk assessment. He also serves as a forensic psychologist consultant for the Rockland County (NY) court evaluation service, where he has performed hundreds of child custody, as well as criminal competency and child abuse/neglect evaluations.
Areas of Specialization:
Bi-polar and other Depressive Disorders
Personality / Borderline Personality Disorders
Victims of Child Sexual Abuse
Alcohol and Drug Problems
Family / Marital Issues
Mental Health Issues
Organic and Brain Dysfunction
Agency Consultation - Dr. Heller also offers consultation to agencies to improve team effort and communication and reduce conflict. He facilitates executive and leadership committee meetings, goal setting, and staff training and clinical supervision of other therapists. Dr. Heller is a Forensic Consultant and custody evaluator for the Rockland County (NY) Department of Mental Health and a Child Custody evaluator for the Bergen Family Center, Court Services Program. He is a Consultant to agencies that include: outpatient and inpatient alcoholism and drug abuse treatment centers, schools, foster care agencies, as well as a variety of group homes for emotionally handicapped, children with special needs, adolescents, developmentally delayed, and dual-diagnosed people.
Law Enforcement Personnel Consultation - Dr. Heller offers his services regarding treatment for alcohol and emotional problems as well as fitness for duty evaluations. Member of the Rockland County De-briefing team for police officers, firefighters, and emergency medical technicians who have been involved in traumatic situations and the treatment of posttraumatic stress disorder. Serve as a clinician for the member assistance program of the New York City Patrolman's Benevolent Association. Serve as an EAP clinician for agents and staff of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA).
Speaking Engagements - Dr. Heller has delivered numerous professional speeches and seminars. His volunteer clinical supervisory and professional activities have been recognized by agencies he has helped.
Manhattan: (Mailing Address) Two Park Avenue, 20th Floor New York, NY 10016 Phone: 212-880-3789 - Alt. Phone: 845-354-0535 Fax: 845-354-1287
New Jersey: (Alternate Mailing Address) 140 East Ridgewood Avenue South Tower, Suite 415 Paramus, NJ 07652 Phone: 201-262-0331 Fax: 845-354-1287
California Main Office: 793A East Foothill Blvd., #200 San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
Global Forensic Services, LLC (GFS) is a Forensic Consulting, Laboratory and Investigative Firm offering over 37 years of experience and training in a wide range of forensic science and private investigation disciplines.
Larry Stewart has personally examined tens of thousands of individual items of evidence from sources such as state, local, and federal agencies (e.g. Federal Bureau of Investigation, Secret Service, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Central Intelligence Agency, and others), and foreign governments. On several occasions he has examined cases involving international disputes between governments.
Mr. Stewart has testified as an Expert Witness in state, federal and military courts of law, as well as in foreign court systems to include; Austria, Australia, Canada, Germany, Sri Lanka and Thailand. He has also testified at The Hague in the Netherlands and three times as an expert before the U.S. Congress.
This book can be purchased directly from the author, It covers the Document Examination profession, tools of the trade, documents defined, interviewing, examination, handwriting analysis, covert and overt investigations, and other related areas.
Dr. Ron Martinelli, PhD, CMI-V, is a nationally renowned Forensic Criminologist and a federal/state courts qualified law enforcement and premises liability expert who is also a Certified Medical Investigator (physician's level). He is also a Certified Suicide Investigator.
Dr. Martinelli directs the nation's only Forensic Death Investigations & Independent Review Team of 26 law enforcement, forensic and medical experts and specializes in officer-involved death cases, civilian self-defense shooting cases and premises liability/security cases. He is a forensic/law enforcement expert to the U.S. Department of Justice, several State Attorney Generals' Offices, numerous major municipalities and nationally prominent private law firms specializing in wrongful death, civil rights and premises liability.
Dr. Martinelli is the prevailing expert in over 90% of his retained cases. He has saved defendants over $300M and earned plaintiffs over $160 million in jury verdicts and settlements since 2004. He is the media's go-to forensic expert for FOX News, One America News Network, CNN, HLN, Sky News, BBC, NPR, and the History & Discovery Channels. Dr. Martinelli is skilled in crime scene reconstruction, forensics, applied sciences, human factors, psycho-medical emergencies and premises liability and security cases. His unique and extensive field experience, combined his academic and scientific credentials, excellent written reports and persuasive testimony, make him a very appealing expert to attorneys and juries alike.
Areas of Expertise:
Search & Seizure
Use of Force / Excessive Force - All Levels and Weaponry
Officer Involved Shootings(OIS)
Law Enforcement & Corrections Practices, Training & Supervision
Officers throughout the United States and perhaps internationally have heard use of force instructors discuss the "21 Foot Rule" during their officer safety, firearms and deadly force training. As both a use of force instructor and practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also trained and testified to this concept myself.
On a hot July day, fire and police are called to the home of a 55 year old man suffering from heat stroke. Police arrive first and find the man sitting on a bench in his front yard. When the officers approach the man and ask him to give them his cane, he becomes agitated and non-compliant. One officer suddenly grabs the cane away from the man, who screams and suddenly stands up. The man is tased, taken to the ground, beaten and handcuffed. He is transported to the hospital where ER physicians confirm a diagnosis of heat stroke. The man has no criminal history. He sustains numerous moderate injuries which keep him from returning to work for several weeks. The officers and agency are sued and settle out of court.
An officer detains an active parolee gang member for questioning, and during the detention, the suspect suddenly runs. The officer chases the suspect for two blocks, observes the suspect to be grabbing into his shorts pocket.
On November 5, 2010, Superior Court Judge Hon. Robert Perry sentenced former BART Police Officer Johannes Mehserle to two years in state prison for the January 1,2009, accidental shooting death of 22-year-old Oscar Grant at the Fruitdale BART station.
San Francisco Police officers respond to a call of an agitated mentally disturbed and disabled man in a wheelchair wielding a knife and vandalizing parked cars on a downtown city street. A group of at least six uniformed and plain clothes officers locate and surround the man who remains seated in his wheelchair. The officers' initial attempts to communicate with the angry, apparently delusional and armed man prove ineffective.
A facts-based introduction to the controversial and militant Black Lives Matter political organization and movement written by a nationally renowned forensic criminologist who has been involved in many of the nation's most publicized police-involved death cases. Learn about the movement's founders, ideology, funding sources, surrogates, radical goals and objectives to disenfranchise law enforcement and usurp the rule of democratic law. Several infamous police death cases forensically explained and numerous false narratives of the movement are factually destroyed with explanations of the actual circumstances. This is a powerful, vetted "go to" reference source for researchers, the media, law enforcement and those interested in this radical movement.
Dr. Randall Atlas AIA , CPP is a Registered Architect, NCARB certified, and he practices Criminal Justice Architecture and Environmental Security Design. Atlas is a certified protection professional (CPP) with the American Society of Industrial Security (ASIS), and is an appointed member of the ASIS Security Architecture and Engineering Committee. Atlas has his doctorate in criminology and a masters of architecture. Dr Atlas is a member of the American Institute of Architects (AIA) Architecture for Justice Committee.
Dr. Atlas has taught CPTED (Crime Prevention through Environmental Design) and criminal justice courses at Florida International University, Florida Atlantic University, and the University of Miami, Keiser University, and he is a trainer with the National Crime Prevention Institute at the University of Louisville. Dr. Atlas has been a technical Assistance consultant with the National Institute of Justice, National Institute of Corrections, and the Florida Department of Corrections and U.S. HUD Drug Elimination CPTED Program.
He has conducted ADA accessibility compliance audits for private and public sector clients, and served as an expert witness on over 200 premises liability lawsuits.
Dr. Atlas has been a speaker and trainer at security conferences from New Delhi, India to Seattle, Washington and has written over 200 articles in various publications on security, safety, and counter terrorism issues.
BETWEEN LATE 2009 AND MARCH OF THIS YEAR, a national baked goods chain with franchises in Broward County, Florida, experienced a series of nighttime burglaries that resulted in thousands of dollars in stolen cash and damaged property.
When it comes to the issue of safety in schools, it is important to remember that long before the students walk the halls, a design team creates the building and its grounds, envisioning the subsequent relationships with its occupants.
This is the first and only book of its kind dedicated to the contributions and importance of Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design (CPTED). It will educate the reader and design professional on the necessity of CPTED in reducing risks, threats, and vulnerabilities of and to our built environment post-9/11…
Francis T. "Jay" Jarvis has over 35 years of experience as a Forensic Scientist, specializing in Forensic Ballistics and Firearms Analysis. Mr. Jarvis has extensive experience in crime laboratory accreditation, having served as an accreditation assessor and as a member of the Board of Directors of the American Society of Crime Laboratory Directors Laboratory Accreditation Board (ASCLD/LAB), including one year as the Board Chair.
Consulting Services - Mr. Jarvis offers Crime Lab Assistance services, providing short term backlog reduction on a contractual basis. Due to his extensive experience with laboratory accreditation, he can also provide interim assessments and independent re-analysis of past casework as part of a corrective action following non-conforming testing or when proficiency test results do not meet the expected result. Testing can be performed at his own facility or on-site utilizing client laboratory protocols.
Mr. Jarvis has been invited to speak at seminars and training sessions around the country on topics related to forensic science. Mr. Jarvis has an avid interest in the history of forensic science. After conducting exhaustive research into the history and development of forensic science in the state of Georgia, Mr. Jarvis published his first book titled Georgia's Crime Doctor - The Story of Herman Jones and the First 20 Years of the Georgia Crime Laboratory. The book details the life of Dr. Herman Jones and his quest to establish a delivery system for forensic services and improve death investigation in Georgia.
Georgia’s Crime Doctor is the story of Dr. Herman Jones, the Alabama native who is responsible for establishing the Georgia State Crime Laboratory. Tracing the steps of Jones and his wife June back to Auburn in the 1930’s, this book chronicles the people, places and events which shaped modern day forensic science in the state of Georgia.
Richard T. Picciochi is a Forensic Handwriting and Document Examiner with over thirty five years of experience in the New York City Police Department Crime Laboratory and in private practice. He is retired from the NYPD Forensic Investigation Division where he was a Detective, Document Examiner and the Technical Supervisor of the Questioned Document Unit. In the course of his career he has examined thousands of disputed signature, handwriting and document cases, participated in numerous high profile investigations and testified in trials including the New York City "Zodiac" homicides and the first terrorist attack on the World Trade Center.
Mr. Picciochi possesses a background that integrates the natural sciences, forensic sciences and law enforcement investigations. He has earned a Master of Science degree in Forensic Science and has received extensive specialized training in questioned document analysis by the NYPD, the FBI and the United States Secret Service.
Mr. Picciochi is a Diplomate of the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners (ABFDE) and was awarded certification upon completion of comprehensive written, practical and oral examinations. He is a member of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences and the International Association for Identification.
Mr. Picciochi specializes in the examination of signatures and has testified in state, federal and international courts. He will accept civil, criminal and administrative cases and offers his services to both Plaintiff and Defense attorneys.